I'm not a licensed broker but can deliver traffic - and now?

Ed · Joined: 15 Oct 2007 Posts: 9

Hi,

Thanks for looking, I'm a internet marketeer as they call it and am exploring for other possibilities then relying on affiliate programs such as Leadpile or Leadpoint.

I see quite a lot of people, industry professionals discussing buying leads, some of you may buy from above mentioned companies as well.

Are there possibilities for me to cut out affiliate programs and work in a more efficient manor?

Let me put it this way for the licensed brokers on this forum to picture yourself in my shoes.

You're an Internet marketeer - you drive targeted traffic to your website by utilizing SEO (Search Engine Optimization) and PPC (Pay Per Click) - what could you do to monetize this traffic and not being dependable on affiliate programs?

What steps would you take to make the best of it?

How can i form synergies of some sort without working with affiliate programs but sell directly to lead buyers?
And where do i stand from a legal point of view in regards to collecting information through web forms?

Thanks for taking the time to read my message!

bambinojw · Joined: 10 Oct 2007 Posts: 11 Location: Phoenix, AZ

I think I understand the point you are making. It sounds to me like you are, forgive me if I'm oversimplying, trying to generate and sell leads to loan officers and mortgage brokers? If that is what you are trying to do, you are in a big pond, and I'm guessing you are not a big fish or you probably wouldn't be asking for advice. Leads, at least for me, are getting less and less profitable, so I've switched over to starting up my own website and SEO and PPC to generate my own leads. I think you will find more and more LO's that are doing this. Unless you can advertise and get your product out there like the big boys, I'm not sure how you would reach the typical broker.

Ed · Joined: 15 Oct 2007 Posts: 9

bambinojw wrote: I think I understand the point you are making. It sounds to me like you are, forgive me if I'm oversimplying, trying to generate and sell leads to loan officers and mortgage brokers? If that is what you are trying to do, you are in a big pond, and I'm guessing you are not a big fish or you probably wouldn't be asking for advice.

If i am a big fish or small fish that is not something you can tell at this point, the fact that i ask for advice can not be associated with any type of lead volume i generate through SEO and PPC.
Besides that - that is not what i want to put up for discussion ;)

I'm dealing with an affiliate program and i feel if i can work directly with lenders that there is room to work more efficiently from a economic point of view.
Quote:
Leads, at least for me, are getting less and less profitable, so I've switched over to starting up my own website and SEO and PPC to generate my own leads.

Smart move - if you dedicate yourself learning the steps of SEO and PPC then you are well on your way pulling in leads on your own.

Quote: Unless you can advertise and get your product out there like the big boys, I'm not sure how you would reach the typical broker.

I want to get in touch with the people that are paying the loan to the consumer.

To be honest, outside of generating traffic and working on a affiliate basis i am not well versed in the mortgage industry when it comes to the hierarchy of the brokers/agents and actual lenders that will deliver the final loan product to the consumer.

But if i walk directly into a bank and speak to a loan manager/officer - and bring forward that i have someone that may be interested in obtaining a refinance loan that i want to bring into his office so he can discuss this with the client and put forward a proposal....

And should the client accept the proposal - i would get a commission?
And should the client not accept then i would get nothing?

I think that would be a good deal don't you think?

Of course the commission should be substantial enough for me to cover the clients that wouldn't accept the proposal.

Through a lead affiliate program i would get paid either way.

What kind of commissions can you expect when dealing directly with lenders and bring forward a client that can be closed?
This of course depends on the total amount that will make up the loan but a ballpark average?

Thanks!

Haplo · Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 2422 Location: Springfield, IL

Quote: And should the client accept the proposal - i would get a commission?
And should the client not accept then i would get nothing?

This would be against the law, so to answer your question, you can expect nothing. You can be paid for leads, you can not be paid for referrals.

Ed · Joined: 15 Oct 2007 Posts: 9

You mean as a private individual right?

I mean basically what Leadpoint does is selling referrals, referrals generated by me through my efforts.

What would be required for me to not break the law?

Thanks!

Haplo · Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 2422 Location: Springfield, IL

My understanding is that leadpoint sells leads, not referrals. Therefore, if you don't convert the lead into a deal, then too bad so sad. All sales are final.

You can not only pay for the good referralls; the ones that you close. You pay for all, or you pay for none. You can filter the leads, so that you only get specific types. Usually the more specific the lead, the more cost there is.

Ed · Joined: 15 Oct 2007 Posts: 9

I think you're missing my point Travis.

Referrals - leads - it's basically the same thing...bringing two sides together.

Instead of Leadpoint bringing forward clients details, lenders go to Leadpoint.

Lenders are being connected with clients through a middle man...Leadpoint.

I don't buy leads - my leads are being sold.

I am a middle man making use of Leadpoint's marketplace.

Leadpoint works with lenders/lead buyers.

What do i need to do to be able to work with lenders?

Thanks!

bambinojw · Joined: 10 Oct 2007 Posts: 11 Location: Phoenix, AZ

Loan officers and Brokers deal with lenders, not typically lead companies. Of course in a retail environment, for example a local branch of Countrywide, there are loan officers interested in leads. But for your typical wholesale lender, their client is really the mortgage company, since that is who their product is geared towards. They don't deal with the borrower directly, nor do they have loan officers that do. Unless you want to become a loan officer, then you wouldn't deal with the lender.

If you are generating an interested client who wants a home loan, Travis already hit the nail of the head earlier, referrals are against the law. You can't be paid commission on the deal unless you are the loan officer working the deal. So you are back to square one, the sale of leads. That is what you are selling. And a lender would not buy your leads unless they have a retail loan division who they are supplying with leads. If you want to try to sell your leads to a lead reseller, that would be a different story. Of course you can't expect to receive a high price for them, I would think no more than $10 -$15 max per lead, if you were lucky.

Haplo · Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 2422 Location: Springfield, IL

Referrals and leads are completely different. You're basically trying to say that an ostrich and an eagle are basically the same because they're both birds.

A lead is simply that; the potential for you to try to sell someone that may or may not in fact be interested in your product. You'll pay for all leads equally.

A referral (which of course many of us strive for in this business) is someone that is ready to use your services. You can not be paid for a referral, just as you would not be paid if the referred borrower decides to not use their services.

If you don't understand the difference between the two, you simply won't make it in a lead generation capacity. One you can be paid for, the other you can't. While they both have the same start/end points, it's what happens in between those points that is important.

Ed · Joined: 15 Oct 2007 Posts: 9

Hi Guys,

Thank you for the replies.
Haplo wrote: Referrals and leads are completely different. You're basically trying to say that an ostrich and an eagle are basically the same because they're both birds.

Not really Travis,

Take Leadpoint as an example - they sell their leads for example to IndyMac Bank, one of their premier lending partners.

IndyMac Bank buys the lead from Leadpoint's marketplace and gives the consumer a quote.
If the consumer accepts then IndyMac Bank lends the money to the consumer.

If i bring the consumer to the bank then that is what you call a referral as you explained and that is against the law...right?

I deliver the lead to Leadpoint and Leadpoint put the lead up for sale - the lender (IndyMac Bank) comes on their own to leadpoint and now all of a sudden it wouldn't be a referral anymore?

A situation is created where the lender can get in touch with the consumer in either circumstance.

If a referral qualifies as someone who explicitly seeks service of a specific lender then it's still a lead and a referral.

Tomato or Tomatoe - it's the same thing we're talking about.

There are affiliate programs, i.e. Alliance-leicester.co.uk - a U.K. bank who has a affiliate program through a outside Affiliate network.

If i generate the traffic i drive the leads, the inquiries to them.

The bank pays for as you say all leads, through omguk.co.uk regardless if there is a actual conversion for them.

If a lead converts the bank makes a considerable amount on the loan.

Now here is the main question: I don't want to work with a middle man, i want to push leads directly to Alliance-leicester.co.uk or IndyMac Bank.

If the lead converts i get paid - if it don't then i am not being paid...or a far smaller amount then they would usually pay.

Working with Alliance-leicester.co.uk i refer the client/consumer directly, Alliance-leicester.co.uk is the only one who buys the leads.
There is no guarantee that the lead/referral goes for the loan product in question.

But omguk.co.uk or Leadpoint is in the middle of it all.

You see what i am driving at? :)

Haplo · Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 2422 Location: Springfield, IL

Yes, and you're skipping over the exact point of what I said. You can not be paid for some and not for others based on whether or not they fund the loan. You get paid for providing them information, what they do with it from that point is up to them.

The difference between Indymac and a UK company is huge as well; two different sets of laws to deal with. This is a site that is primarily US originaters and consumers. There are very few people that come here from the UK, and most of them are consumers or lead generaters.

Ed · Joined: 15 Oct 2007 Posts: 9

Haplo wrote: Yes, and you're skipping over the exact point of what I said. You can not be paid for some and not for others based on whether or not they fund the loan. You get paid for providing them information, what they do with it from that point is up to them.

But if the lenders deal directly with me then it is up to me if i charge or do not charge for the information right?

And if a loan gets finalized all i want is a extra bonus/commission.

If i was a lender like IndyMac Bank then that is pretty damn good deal wouldn't you say?

If you can't finalize the loan you pay nothing (Or much less then somewhere else) but if you can then you pay a commission.

So i am curious what i can/need to do to construct such synergies?
Is there a legal aspect that first needs to be taken care of and if so what am i looking at?

I presume if you work directly with actual lenders you can expect a far better commission structure?

What kind of commissions would that be? $XXX or $XXXX ?

Of course this is dependent on the loan amount and term as well i presume.
But on average what kind of numbers can one expect?

Thanks!

Haplo · Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 2422 Location: Springfield, IL

Let me make it more simple for you.

You can't do that, it's against the law, and if you do you won't be visiting a federal white collar resort prison with conjugal visits.

Ed · Joined: 15 Oct 2007 Posts: 9

Hmm, so a lender can come to Leadpoint to buy information but i can't go to a lender and sell them my leads directly?

Can you point me to legal resources that indicates it is against the law?

Thanks for bearing with me Travis ;)

Haplo · Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 2422 Location: Springfield, IL

You can sell information, you can not request "bonus pay" for closed leads, nor can you receive compensation other than for "information."

RESPA. Become familiar with it.

You came to visit us asking for advice, and then joke about how it doesn't matter if you're a 'big fish or a little fish.' You're bouncing back and forth between UK and US policies. If you're not up front with us, and you're not going to listen to us, what precisely are you looking for?

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